WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.040 How are you? 00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:03.120 >> Yeah, good. I've been on holiday this 00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:06.640 week, so I've but I've just been at 00:00:06.640 --> 00:00:09.920 home, so I in the end of the day, I just 00:00:09.920 --> 00:00:12.000 just been trying to spend time with my 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.920 kids and 00:00:13.920 --> 00:00:16.720 not too sure I'm doing the greatest job. 00:00:16.720 --> 00:00:19.600 I just I just end up arranging 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:21.359 activities and then watching them play 00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:22.720 from afar. 00:00:22.720 --> 00:00:24.400 >> How old are they? 00:00:24.400 --> 00:00:26.240 >> 10 and eight. 00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:27.840 >> Oh, that's nice. They're close to each 00:00:27.840 --> 00:00:29.279 other. Um 00:00:29.279 --> 00:00:30.640 >> yeah, 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:32.160 >> and they can entertain themselves. 00:00:32.160 --> 00:00:34.399 They're at an age. 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:36.559 >> Yeah, it's it's quite good. Yeah. And 00:00:36.559 --> 00:00:39.120 then and then um the big news is that my 00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:41.920 c my sister and her husband's moving in 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:43.840 here and they're going to live next to 00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:46.000 us so that they got two cousins to play 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.480 with all the time. 00:00:48.480 --> 00:00:50.480 >> So I guess I don't need to be around 00:00:50.480 --> 00:00:52.879 anymore. I can just fully devote myself 00:00:52.879 --> 00:00:56.879 to AI. Oh my god, that sounds so I mean 00:00:56.879 --> 00:00:59.120 not not at all what I'm doing though. 00:00:59.120 --> 00:01:01.840 >> No, no, no, no. You got the balance. 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:04.879 You've got the balance just right. 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:08.799 >> My son is 17 and my daughter is 12. No, 00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:11.680 10. Uh, she's 6 years younger, so she 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:13.760 must be 11. Yeah, she's going to be 11. 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:16.240 >> Yeah. And so it's a bigger gap and 00:01:16.240 --> 00:01:18.560 there's a bit more a different power 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:22.640 dynamic. Like he acts like, 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:25.280 you know, cuz he he feels like I spoil 00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:27.759 her because she's my little princess. So 00:01:27.759 --> 00:01:29.600 he's there to set things right, you 00:01:29.600 --> 00:01:31.759 know, to be a bit more disciplined when 00:01:31.759 --> 00:01:33.680 she's, you know, taking all this for a 00:01:33.680 --> 00:01:35.119 walk. I don't know if you can see this 00:01:35.119 --> 00:01:37.119 ring like in in the reflection in the 00:01:37.119 --> 00:01:37.520 glasses. 00:01:37.520 --> 00:01:39.200 >> I can actually. I can. Is this is this 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:42.960 your your light or something? It's this 00:01:42.960 --> 00:01:46.159 feature on when I got this MacBook and I 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:47.920 joined the meeting. I wanted I was in a 00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:50.720 dark room and it says said the the light 00:01:50.720 --> 00:01:52.560 is bad. Do you want to turn on the c the 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:54.560 ring camera? And I thought it was a 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:56.399 Microsoft Teams thing and I was like 00:01:56.399 --> 00:01:57.680 I'll figure out how to turn it off at 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:00.399 some point. But it's everywhere and it's 00:02:00.399 --> 00:02:02.479 annoying cuz it's and I haven't figured 00:02:02.479 --> 00:02:04.079 out how to turn it off yet. 00:02:04.079 --> 00:02:06.399 >> I should ask Claw to turn it off for me. 00:02:06.399 --> 00:02:08.800 >> Yeah. So you're in a different room now. 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:11.760 >> Yeah. So my I had to give my 00:02:11.760 --> 00:02:13.840 >> son's room back so he could spend some 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:15.760 private time. He can get some some 00:02:15.760 --> 00:02:16.879 private time. 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:19.680 >> Why you say it like that? [laughter] 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:22.319 >> Well, yeah. It's It's been good to 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:25.280 disconnect for a little bit, but I still 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:26.879 like read hacker news in the morning 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:28.959 like a lunatic. 00:02:28.959 --> 00:02:32.400 Funny enough, uh, Paul Graham 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:35.280 was was talking about that one problem 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.000 that he felt that was not solved with 00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:40.959 white carbonator is is how to balance 00:02:40.959 --> 00:02:44.400 family life with with startup culture. 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.920 Family life, startup culture. Yeah, 00:02:47.920 --> 00:02:51.120 there doesn't seem to be any way of 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:55.120 making those two mix very very well. 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.160 I I mean I personally know at least a at 00:02:58.160 --> 00:03:00.560 least a couple of people that have have 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:03.040 thrown themselves deep into tech and of 00:03:03.040 --> 00:03:05.680 course they don't have a family I would 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:07.280 say 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:08.879 >> which I think is a bit of a shame. I 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:11.920 don't know if you have got any of those 00:03:11.920 --> 00:03:15.200 examples to hand but I know yeah I 00:03:15.200 --> 00:03:16.480 definitely know a couple of people who 00:03:16.480 --> 00:03:20.720 went deep. Yeah, I aside from myself, I 00:03:20.720 --> 00:03:22.640 have a family, but 00:03:22.640 --> 00:03:23.280 >> just 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:26.239 >> cuz they're quite accommodating to to to 00:03:26.239 --> 00:03:28.640 me being so like honestly it was 00:03:28.640 --> 00:03:31.280 supposed to be temporary right after co 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:33.840 you know it was supposed to be like you 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.440 know just you know lock in for a while. 00:03:37.440 --> 00:03:40.720 It's been five years now um to to 00:03:40.720 --> 00:03:44.799 prepare for the future because you know 00:03:44.799 --> 00:03:48.640 co made remote work possible and 00:03:48.640 --> 00:03:49.599 >> exactly 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:52.400 >> it allowed me to try and put away as 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:54.720 much as I can and retire early except 00:03:54.720 --> 00:03:56.640 I've been doing that for 5 years and I'm 00:03:56.640 --> 00:03:58.400 not retiring early. So 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:02.319 >> yeah, I yeah, like with AI and the 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:05.360 investments I'm making, I feel like 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:07.439 I'm going to be working to the day I 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:10.319 well until the into retirement age at 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:12.640 the very least. But yeah, I I feel the 00:04:12.640 --> 00:04:16.160 pressure with AI. I mean, I do enjoy AI. 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.680 It's just that of course there is there 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.160 is like an under an undertone an 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:25.520 underlying pressure to to stay relevant 00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:27.040 and 00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:28.639 and and 00:04:28.639 --> 00:04:30.320 stay ahead of the pack and it's yeah it 00:04:30.320 --> 00:04:34.080 is a bit it is a bit much. 00:04:34.080 --> 00:04:37.040 It is a bit much but like got to keep on 00:04:37.040 --> 00:04:39.360 doing it and try and make it fun. So 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:40.560 hopefully you have some fun things to 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:43.199 tell me Vincent. Otherwise, I'm just I'm 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:45.440 gonna sign off now and spend some time 00:04:45.440 --> 00:04:46.960 with my children. 00:04:46.960 --> 00:04:50.240 >> Stand still and contemplate or decide 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:52.320 like make sense of what we're doing and 00:04:52.320 --> 00:04:54.400 let's just dive in and focus on what 00:04:54.400 --> 00:04:57.199 what what other fun stuff we read about. 00:04:57.199 --> 00:04:57.680 >> Yeah. 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.400 >> Never stand still. Never look back. 00:05:00.400 --> 00:05:03.120 >> Got to keep it fun. Yeah. Don't ask uh 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:05.520 you know, ethical questions. 00:05:05.520 --> 00:05:06.000 >> Yeah. 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.160 >> Oh, I I got into I got into a silly 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:09.759 debate yesterday with one of the people 00:05:09.759 --> 00:05:12.479 I played tennis with at I'm a proponent 00:05:12.479 --> 00:05:14.960 of having of building solar farms. I 00:05:14.960 --> 00:05:16.240 don't know what it's like in Vietnam, 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.320 but like this there's been a bit of a 00:05:18.320 --> 00:05:22.240 buildout of of zero my god, what's it 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:26.400 called? Zero whatever um zero footprint 00:05:26.400 --> 00:05:28.080 energy, whatever it's called. So 00:05:28.080 --> 00:05:30.800 basically solar farms in in England and 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:32.240 there's like a real opposition to it 00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:33.919 because like oh what about our food 00:05:33.919 --> 00:05:35.759 security? But like I can't help but 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.080 argue like isn't energy security 00:05:38.080 --> 00:05:40.000 slightly more important? 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:41.440 >> Yeah. 00:05:41.440 --> 00:05:44.000 and saving the world. Anyway, okay, 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.639 those distractions aside, Vincent, you 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:48.800 look a bit drained and distracted. Come 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:49.919 on. 00:05:49.919 --> 00:05:52.720 >> Yeah. No, let's let me share the the 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:55.759 screen. Entire screen. 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:57.440 I'm going to do it on the screen that 00:05:57.440 --> 00:06:00.240 has the Coo massive 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:01.840 um inception right there. 00:06:01.840 --> 00:06:06.319 >> Okay. So, you're back on the hero stuff. 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:10.880 >> Yeah. So I'm actually running like a 00:06:10.880 --> 00:06:14.080 local build um where I did a couple of 00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:16.479 really fun things. So my version might 00:06:16.479 --> 00:06:19.919 not actually work properly uh because I 00:06:19.919 --> 00:06:25.199 went quite invasive and I mean Kiro Crew 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:27.759 is kind of AWS 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:30.479 openclaw/harmus 00:06:30.479 --> 00:06:34.880 solution for enterprise right and since 00:06:34.880 --> 00:06:38.319 they made it public they now are also 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:43.199 sharing about how quickly it evolves 00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:45.840 similar to openclaw or hermas you know 00:06:45.840 --> 00:06:48.479 having agents on their own contribute 00:06:48.479 --> 00:06:51.120 the features and then they have a whole 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:54.880 testing harness and um review harness. 00:06:54.880 --> 00:06:57.120 So this is actually very interesting to 00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.199 to see and also to 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:01.520 >> there's a link up with the the AWS bench 00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:04.319 that we were talking about last time. 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:07.280 Uh 00:07:07.280 --> 00:07:10.240 maybe because I do believe they they 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:14.240 they do benchmark hero's capabilities 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:17.759 on specifically AWS type of um [snorts] 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:20.000 you know problems. Do you want to focus 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:23.199 on that first or like let's just look at 00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:25.759 >> So this is called Kiro Crew. I kind of 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:28.000 >> Yes. So there's a big difference here. 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:29.599 Maybe you see it at the top. I am 00:07:29.599 --> 00:07:32.240 currently running the Mac OS app and 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:34.240 that comes bundled with a gateway that 00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:38.319 then hooks into your local MacBook um 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:40.639 where you will have Kiro CLI 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:44.080 authenticated and the Kiro CLI and the 00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:46.560 Kiro IDE which is the original IDE they 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:47.919 launched with specdriven development 00:07:47.919 --> 00:07:51.199 last year has all been rewritten to work 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:54.160 on a single harness a single bankant and 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.319 it uses the agent client protocol to 00:07:56.319 --> 00:07:57.759 connect everything. So you get you get 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:00.319 all of these different experiences um 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.080 and with with like one like if I go into 00:08:04.080 --> 00:08:06.560 the builder article I wrote 00:08:06.560 --> 00:08:08.960 >> I noticed that AWS was contributing to 00:08:08.960 --> 00:08:13.599 the whole MCP thing and making it easier 00:08:13.599 --> 00:08:14.479 to 00:08:14.479 --> 00:08:18.479 >> so this is the agent client protocol not 00:08:18.479 --> 00:08:19.759 not MCP 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:21.360 >> agent client protocol okay 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:22.720 >> yeah it's not the model 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:25.440 >> it's not the model context protocol so 00:08:25.440 --> 00:08:28.319 what what Kira crew is here. Um it's a 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.360 it's a gateway and um 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:34.080 >> very much like how how um you know 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:36.080 OpenCloud originally was a gateway to 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:38.719 Telegram or WhatsApp uh for you to talk 00:08:38.719 --> 00:08:42.479 to your um agent um wherever it ran like 00:08:42.479 --> 00:08:45.040 maybe it's your um you know codec cli or 00:08:45.040 --> 00:08:46.640 your Claude Code you know originally it 00:08:46.640 --> 00:08:50.160 was open claw claw like cloud cloudbot 00:08:50.160 --> 00:08:52.480 it was related to Claude Code right until 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:55.120 anthropic shut it down and then codex u 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:57.600 you know openai hired hurts Peter and 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.000 anyway this is the same thing right it 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:03.120 starts as a gateway and the gateway 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:06.160 connects to MCP tools and this is uh the 00:09:06.160 --> 00:09:08.399 dashboard app um this is the actual 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:09.600 dashboard app 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:11.920 >> you can also have it in your browser so 00:09:11.920 --> 00:09:14.240 this is the dashboard app running in the 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:16.959 >> I was going to ask is there a mobile app 00:09:16.959 --> 00:09:19.040 >> um potentially I'm not I'm not sure I 00:09:19.040 --> 00:09:20.959 haven't looked into that uh but anyway 00:09:20.959 --> 00:09:23.279 so so this is the whole component layout 00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:25.440 which I think is a little bit murky when 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:26.959 you first inst install it and you don't 00:09:26.959 --> 00:09:28.880 know like when you first download or 00:09:28.880 --> 00:09:30.560 built the the dashboard app on your 00:09:30.560 --> 00:09:32.480 machine, it's actually running on your 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:35.600 on your laptop and this this Mac OS app 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:36.640 right here 00:09:36.640 --> 00:09:41.120 >> comes with sessions to for chat schedule 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.200 um everything is is is there and it runs 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.519 on your laptop which I did not like I 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:48.000 don't want this on my laptop I wanted to 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:49.920 >> feel a little bit like an antiattern you 00:09:49.920 --> 00:09:51.680 know when people install openclaw on 00:09:51.680 --> 00:09:54.959 their their Mac minis and like yeah take 00:09:54.959 --> 00:09:56.480 over everything. 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:58.640 >> Yeah. So, so that's where I got confused 00:09:58.640 --> 00:09:59.920 and that's where I really like this 00:09:59.920 --> 00:10:01.360 diagram because I didn't know what the 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:03.839 components were within and uh but the 00:10:03.839 --> 00:10:04.959 most important part is that this 00:10:04.959 --> 00:10:07.279 dashboard app comes with like a bundled 00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:09.760 gateway uh and then it connects to your 00:10:09.760 --> 00:10:12.080 Kiro CLI on your machine and then if you 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.320 authenticate Kiro CLI or you use Kiro 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:16.240 before it will inherit everything you 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:18.480 already have there. So, um then it it's 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:20.160 a little bit like herder what you 00:10:20.160 --> 00:10:22.079 mentioned you know it gives you an 00:10:22.079 --> 00:10:23.279 overview of all this of all the 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:23.680 sessions. 00:10:23.680 --> 00:10:25.279 >> Where does this gateway run? Is this an 00:10:25.279 --> 00:10:26.800 AWS thing 00:10:26.800 --> 00:10:30.720 >> here? Um, let me just 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:33.279 >> This is you get like all your chats of 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:35.680 your your local session. So, 00:10:35.680 --> 00:10:38.320 >> when you do the gateway in the Mac OS 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:40.399 app, it's it's basically just it talks 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:43.040 to your uh CLI on your machine using 00:10:43.040 --> 00:10:45.920 ACP, right? Agent client protocol. Okay, 00:10:45.920 --> 00:10:52.160 cool. So, um Oops. Yeah. So, so that's 00:10:52.160 --> 00:10:53.600 where does the gateway run on your 00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:54.880 machine? 00:10:54.880 --> 00:10:56.720 Yes, I'm going to say it the third time 00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:00.079 now for you. Okay, the local bundle. 00:11:00.079 --> 00:11:02.640 This thing runs the gateway inside the 00:11:02.640 --> 00:11:05.600 Mac OS DMG. If you build it, it it 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:08.880 bundles the single page app like a React 00:11:08.880 --> 00:11:12.640 vit and the gateway which is a Python uh 00:11:12.640 --> 00:11:14.480 gateway and that connect with the 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:17.920 protocol to your KRO on your machine. 00:11:17.920 --> 00:11:20.560 Okay. So, this this Mac OS app 00:11:20.560 --> 00:11:22.560 >> runs the gateway. 00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:24.000 >> Got it. But then 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:26.399 >> and now let me let me tell you one more 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.279 thing. One more thing here is that this 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:31.440 particular gateway has a remote crew 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.360 capability here. 00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:34.640 >> Ah 00:11:34.640 --> 00:11:39.279 >> yeah so with this remote crew you can um 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:42.320 if you use the Kiro crew CLI you can you 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.079 have a cloud subcomand. So actually 00:11:44.079 --> 00:11:46.079 that's um the next part of this of this 00:11:46.079 --> 00:11:48.079 article here uh is that you can set up 00:11:48.079 --> 00:11:51.120 remote crew and you can run Kiro Crew 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:56.079 cloud um to manage remote instances and 00:11:56.079 --> 00:11:58.160 and that basically bootstrap a cloud for 00:11:58.160 --> 00:12:00.560 template into your AWS account and spins 00:12:00.560 --> 00:12:03.040 up an instance with the gateway as well. 00:12:03.040 --> 00:12:05.600 So that's a separate remote gateway that 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:08.480 you then that you then connect to. Okay. 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:09.440 So that's 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:11.920 >> that's a separate machine. You may run 00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:13.839 the Kiro CLI on it. Then you need to 00:12:13.839 --> 00:12:16.880 authenticate your Kiro CLI and um with 00:12:16.880 --> 00:12:18.880 the device mode authentication on your 00:12:18.880 --> 00:12:22.079 subscription and then you you get um you 00:12:22.079 --> 00:12:24.720 know [snorts] Kira access and all the 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.240 models that Kiro support. Um and you you 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:32.079 you get the same thing here. Um sorry 00:12:32.079 --> 00:12:36.320 you get the where was I? 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:38.800 Uh where is the app? Oh, here it is. So, 00:12:38.800 --> 00:12:41.600 so you get you get you can connect. So, 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:43.600 let let's let's say you spin up one and 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:46.399 then you can connect here and then it 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:49.279 will pop up at the top and now you have 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:51.120 uh all of the chat sessions you have 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.200 with that instance over there 00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:55.920 >> and it can run um you know you can set 00:12:55.920 --> 00:12:58.639 up tasks to run on on a on a schedule. 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:00.639 So, the thing runs on its own 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.200 >> and um I mean I guess this is like what 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:05.440 you would get if you runs the Hermes app 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.639 which I never ran. So um I have a Hermes 00:13:08.639 --> 00:13:10.800 VM and right now the only way I interact 00:13:10.800 --> 00:13:13.519 with it is through the Discord channel 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:15.440 and it's not a very nice experience, 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:17.040 right? Every interaction is either 00:13:17.040 --> 00:13:20.160 through a Discord uh thread um and and 00:13:20.160 --> 00:13:22.880 in this case actually I get a nice UI 00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:25.519 and I do think Hermes has this as well 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:28.399 but this is the AWS version. I I've 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.079 shown you this before, but I I use this 00:13:30.079 --> 00:13:32.560 thing called command and control, 00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:34.880 which has a mobile app and a web page 00:13:34.880 --> 00:13:38.399 where I I I I connect to all my my 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:40.560 different uh 00:13:40.560 --> 00:13:44.160 Okay. So, so this this this is confusing 00:13:44.160 --> 00:13:46.079 because I have another sessions here 00:13:46.079 --> 00:13:48.000 settings here and then here I don't have 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.639 the remote crew uh option because this 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:53.200 is a remote gateway already. Um, and 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:54.560 what's very interesting is when you're 00:13:54.560 --> 00:13:56.000 developing and you're making changes to 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:57.920 the gateway and then it goes and deploys 00:13:57.920 --> 00:14:00.079 the gateway into that remote instance, 00:14:00.079 --> 00:14:03.199 you have to like reload this whole pane 00:14:03.199 --> 00:14:06.000 because this whole pane is served over 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:09.360 SSH or over SSM via private tunnel. So, 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:10.880 so this actually is a separate instance 00:14:10.880 --> 00:14:12.959 of a gateway running separately that you 00:14:12.959 --> 00:14:15.680 that you get over um over a tunnel like 00:14:15.680 --> 00:14:17.040 an SSH tunnel. 00:14:17.040 --> 00:14:19.360 >> It's very interesting. Yeah. So, okay, 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:20.720 >> that that was interesting because I was 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:22.560 building I was re uh changing things and 00:14:22.560 --> 00:14:24.720 and and reloading the app is actually a 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:26.240 little bit unintuitive because I was 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.040 like do I need to rebuild my my local uh 00:14:29.040 --> 00:14:32.079 Mac OS app and and uh cloud was like no 00:14:32.079 --> 00:14:34.399 uh the whole app loads over SSH 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.920 remotely. So once the the whole um asset 00:14:37.920 --> 00:14:39.680 all of the assets have been downloaded 00:14:39.680 --> 00:14:42.320 over SSH then it runs very quickly. Um, 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:43.920 but the first time it can take a while 00:14:43.920 --> 00:14:46.000 if you run a a crew somewhere in in 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:47.680 Singapore and you're in Vietnam and your 00:14:47.680 --> 00:14:50.079 connection is not great. Um, then then 00:14:50.079 --> 00:14:51.600 the first time loading then is a bit 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:53.600 slow. Uh, but once it's loaded it's it's 00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:54.160 pretty fast. I 00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:56.160 >> I like the look of this whole ecosystem. 00:14:56.160 --> 00:14:58.639 I guess I guess this is like remote 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:01.600 control claw remote control on steroids. 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:03.040 I guess we're going to see more of these 00:15:03.040 --> 00:15:05.600 sort of buildouts, right, where you you 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.839 you able to see your a number of agents 00:15:09.839 --> 00:15:13.519 in essentially one place, right? Yeah. 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:17.199 And there's also the ability here. Okay. 00:15:17.199 --> 00:15:18.880 I I want to really go into the features 00:15:18.880 --> 00:15:20.720 that this thing has because it has a lot 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:22.320 more like my experience setting up 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:25.360 Hermes VM and then coming into this um 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.040 is like holy, you know, sword. This is 00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:33.360 them um packed with features. Um you I 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.120 haven't tried this yet, but right now 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.120 this remote uh instance is actually a 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:38.880 virtual machine on my desktop at home 00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:41.040 only accessible over LAN. Uh I'm very 00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:43.760 excited to enable like tail net uh or or 00:15:43.760 --> 00:15:45.680 like tail scale and then being able to 00:15:45.680 --> 00:15:48.320 connect to it remotely. Um 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:50.720 >> ideally over a control and open claw 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:53.759 have that kind of up the box. 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.160 >> Uh yeah sure. Now let's go and talk 00:15:56.160 --> 00:15:57.680 about some of these cool things here 00:15:57.680 --> 00:16:00.480 like knowledge. So I don't know if you 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:02.320 set up like I don't know about open claw 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.880 but Hermes when you set it up one of 00:16:04.880 --> 00:16:06.560 the first thing you have to do is like 00:16:06.560 --> 00:16:09.040 what is your memory system it's flexible 00:16:09.040 --> 00:16:10.399 right you can choose which one you want 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:12.959 you can use hindsight.ai AI uh you can 00:16:12.959 --> 00:16:15.920 use another like you ideally nose knows 00:16:15.920 --> 00:16:18.560 no new uh the the company behind Hermes 00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:20.079 wants you to use their control their 00:16:20.079 --> 00:16:22.160 cloud to use their services right but 00:16:22.160 --> 00:16:24.240 you are freeing one I don't remember 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:25.839 choosing I don't remember choosing one 00:16:25.839 --> 00:16:27.680 but was 00:16:27.680 --> 00:16:30.480 >> yeah soh yeah it also can use markdown 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.600 files so on disk it will have a a soulm 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:36.560 and maybe some other uh markdown files 00:16:36.560 --> 00:16:38.240 but what I found was that it very 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:40.320 quickly hit a ceiling on like there are 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.680 restrictions on the markdown on file 00:16:41.680 --> 00:16:43.519 size and also when it tries to save 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:45.600 memories it writes to down to markdown 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.519 and then it hit that size limit. I 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:49.040 basically used Hermes without really 00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:50.399 knowing what what it was doing for a 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.920 week and then I asked Sonnet what are the 00:16:51.920 --> 00:16:53.279 common failures what are the errors that 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:54.959 you see in the logs and one of the first 00:16:54.959 --> 00:16:57.040 things Sonnet uh highlighted or cloud 00:16:57.040 --> 00:16:59.040 code highlighted was that well it's 00:16:59.040 --> 00:17:00.720 having a lot of issues writing memories 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.440 like it's hitting markdown file CS and 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:04.799 things like that so the memory system 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:06.559 was the first thing that I replaced uh 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:07.760 within Hermes. 00:17:07.760 --> 00:17:08.799 >> Okay. 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:10.959 >> Yeah. I feel like I'm being lazy because 00:17:10.959 --> 00:17:12.880 I've not looked through the Hermes logs 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:14.240 to be honest. 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.880 >> Yeah. So, so, so what that meant for me 00:17:16.880 --> 00:17:19.039 was that first off I wanted to figure 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:20.880 out what does a memory system provide 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.720 and like how can I use it and I started 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:27.760 to learn a little bit more about 00:17:27.760 --> 00:17:30.160 um like on the memory side of things 00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.880 there's information about how do these 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.679 memories uh link together 00:17:35.679 --> 00:17:38.400 um you know semantically you know recall 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:40.480 rate like when were the last recall are 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.720 they still fresh there's a lot of uh 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:45.120 aspects about a memory system that you 00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:46.480 don't really want to bother with, right? 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:48.000 But but I had to learn it because I had 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.600 to like understand a little bit better 00:17:49.600 --> 00:17:51.520 about Hermes and setting up the memory 00:17:51.520 --> 00:17:53.520 system. So I I'm running on the desktop 00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:56.799 a complete full stack of uh containers 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:58.880 which uh uses Postgres vector 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:00.640 embedding. I have a embedding model that 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.280 I had set up with my GPU and then you 00:18:03.280 --> 00:18:06.080 come to Kiro you install it and 00:18:06.080 --> 00:18:08.240 everything is there right I'm trying to 00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.559 find now but in terms of like if I look 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:13.200 at the memory configuration it comes 00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:14.960 with a local embedding model where is 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:16.080 the memory 00:18:16.080 --> 00:18:19.679 >> what does what does embedding mean here 00:18:19.679 --> 00:18:21.600 >> yeah so embedding models are basically 00:18:21.600 --> 00:18:23.840 converting text into token into into uh 00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:28.160 token arrays right so um a vector so so 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:30.000 text becomes tokens tokens becomes a 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:31.760 vector that gets stores into a vector 00:18:31.760 --> 00:18:34.880 database for semantic lookups. 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:37.120 >> What what's the benefit of that? 00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:41.200 >> If I say cat and um it can it can relate 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:42.960 to house cat even though they're not 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:46.000 lexically close the concept of cat dog 00:18:46.000 --> 00:18:48.000 is is is semantically close to house 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.320 pet. So converting a word like cat or 00:18:50.320 --> 00:18:53.120 dog to tokens and then calculating uh 00:18:53.120 --> 00:18:55.200 using an embedding model. So you have to 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:56.799 use the same embedding model that you 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.679 that you um store the data with the 00:18:59.679 --> 00:19:01.679 vectors with because it consistently 00:19:01.679 --> 00:19:03.919 converts all of this. It's it's a small 00:19:03.919 --> 00:19:08.320 open uh weights model that um gets text 00:19:08.320 --> 00:19:10.640 and then converts them into vectors and 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:12.160 then those vectors they have like 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.360 similarity. So cat, dog and house pet 00:19:15.360 --> 00:19:18.000 all have very close semantic meanings. 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:19.679 So their vectors will be very close to 00:19:19.679 --> 00:19:21.840 each other. So if you do you can imagine 00:19:21.840 --> 00:19:24.080 like if you if you imagine two 00:19:24.080 --> 00:19:25.600 dimensional vectors you can calculate 00:19:25.600 --> 00:19:27.120 the distance between them easily right 00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:30.080 but these are vectors with like 1,024 00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:33.360 dimensions it's very hard to imagine how 00:19:33.360 --> 00:19:35.200 uh you know but you can calculate the 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:37.039 similarity between them. So, so that's 00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:39.039 what an embedding model does and it 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:40.559 means that if you have some type of 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.640 semantic um you know lookups you need to 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:47.039 run an embedding model uh when you get 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.760 text store it into a vector database and 00:19:49.760 --> 00:19:51.440 then when you want to query the database 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:55.520 you need to um embed that query send it 00:19:55.520 --> 00:19:56.880 um to the vector store to do a 00:19:56.880 --> 00:19:58.400 similarity lookup and then it's going to 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.200 return facts about that are related to 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:02.720 that query. So embedding is very 00:20:02.720 --> 00:20:04.799 important and running embedded locally 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.960 on your machine is kind of it's 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:08.559 happening. You have a lot of small 00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:11.039 little um models that are running on 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:12.640 your machines already. I Claude Code 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.039 ships with the local um model. It it it 00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:16.799 it runs a local model to do the auto 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:18.799 mode classifier. I'm pretty sure. Oh 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:20.080 actually no 00:20:20.080 --> 00:20:21.679 >> actually no because because when you 00:20:21.679 --> 00:20:23.039 sometimes you get an error saying the 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:24.720 classifier hits an API error or 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.160 something. So it is it is remote. 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.679 >> Yeah it is remote. But the on the topic 00:20:29.679 --> 00:20:32.159 of memories. So 00:20:32.159 --> 00:20:33.600 how do you maintain your memories? Cuz 00:20:33.600 --> 00:20:35.280 like markdown is cool because you can 00:20:35.280 --> 00:20:38.880 just like SCP your your your markdown 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.919 into a new machine. How do you maintain 00:20:41.919 --> 00:20:45.919 your your embeddings database here? It 00:20:45.919 --> 00:20:48.480 doesn't. So ideally you don't right like 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:50.799 >> so if ideally that's where where these 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.720 these memory systems have all kinds of 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:54.640 like capabilities and cleanup jobs and 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.039 and and and background functionality to 00:20:57.039 --> 00:20:59.440 maintain the memory right so I don't 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.080 like with hindsight I don't even know if 00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:04.480 there's like a a chrome running to like 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:06.960 identify any stale memories and and re 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.200 reorganize the memories to see what's 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:11.600 what's relevant and I al honestly don't 00:21:11.600 --> 00:21:13.200 really want to worry too much about it 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:15.679 right um but you see how like that you 00:21:15.679 --> 00:21:17.039 miss a lot of that when you have simple 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:18.720 markdown on disk, right? 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.440 >> Yeah. Yeah. This is this is why I kind 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:23.520 of I I always kind of gravitate back 00:21:23.520 --> 00:21:25.679 down to markdown because I can 00:21:25.679 --> 00:21:28.400 understand it in my human monkey brain. 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.720 >> So, here it is. Embedding is using llama 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.600 cpp. I want to find because it actually 00:21:33.600 --> 00:21:36.400 lists out the local models that that KO 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:38.799 ships with and it runs. So, I can't find 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:40.320 the model. I think it's in security. If 00:21:40.320 --> 00:21:42.480 I go to settings and security, I think 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.960 the auto mode classifier 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:47.600 um is somewhere in the settings. So, 00:21:47.600 --> 00:21:49.039 it's it's very interesting to go through 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:50.960 and and and figure that out. Uh but I 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.440 think it runs at least two or three. 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:55.280 >> But the next burning question in my mind 00:21:55.280 --> 00:21:57.679 is what's the the multiplayer aspect? Is 00:21:57.679 --> 00:22:01.200 it just through just are you supposed to 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.760 is one person supposed to admin this and 00:22:03.760 --> 00:22:05.840 then your team is on Slack or something 00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:09.520 or or was there some other usage 00:22:09.520 --> 00:22:14.080 paradigm that's supposed to happen here? 00:22:14.080 --> 00:22:17.919 >> I do know that Kiro um when you use it, 00:22:17.919 --> 00:22:20.880 it has this artifacts capability and I 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.280 know if you look at the artifact, you 00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:27.360 you can leave comments on things. Um, 00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:30.880 and I do think that this comments thing 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:32.240 I feel like that's really something that 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:35.360 is a multiplayer capability. Um, but 00:22:35.360 --> 00:22:37.600 >> so that means every everyone in your 00:22:37.600 --> 00:22:38.720 team runs 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:40.960 >> I don't know if you can like I don't I 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.600 guess as far as I can see right now the 00:22:43.600 --> 00:22:45.520 gateway doesn't have like a multi-tenant 00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:49.200 or multi-user um capability. When I look 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:51.200 at these and I want to click publish to 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:54.159 share it with the team, it's going to 00:22:54.159 --> 00:22:58.240 use a skill to if this is a box running 00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:00.159 in my AWS, it's going to try and publish 00:23:00.159 --> 00:23:02.480 it through like a cloud front or S3. So 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.240 the cool thing is that everything is 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:05.919 yours, right? If you use Claude Code and 00:23:05.919 --> 00:23:07.840 you create an artifact and then you it 00:23:07.840 --> 00:23:10.720 gets like a cloud hosted URL publishing 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:12.720 it is all controlled by entropic. This 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:14.799 is all your box, your memories, your 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:16.159 your S3, your account. 00:23:16.159 --> 00:23:18.159 >> The power of AWS, they can sort of 00:23:18.159 --> 00:23:20.000 connect the dots, can't they? 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:21.600 >> Yeah. And then 00:23:21.600 --> 00:23:23.039 >> with your 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:25.280 >> with this with this capability to just 00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:29.120 run one command Kiro Crew cloud and then 00:23:29.120 --> 00:23:31.280 you can just launch and then you you 00:23:31.280 --> 00:23:33.440 consider do you want light balance but 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:34.880 you do realize that you need a 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:37.200 significant amount of um CPU and memory 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:38.320 because you're running all these local 00:23:38.320 --> 00:23:40.400 embedding models, right? you know, and 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:42.159 you're running a whole memory system and 00:23:42.159 --> 00:23:45.200 and and more. So, so the light one is is 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:46.159 not cheap. 00:23:46.159 --> 00:23:48.400 >> And I guess it's not serverless. The 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:50.080 thing is running all the time, even if 00:23:50.080 --> 00:23:52.320 you don't use it, right? 00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:55.440 >> Even worse, I I went for the full p 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.760 private uh instance. That means it was 00:23:57.760 --> 00:24:00.159 running on a private subnet, not public. 00:24:00.159 --> 00:24:01.520 And that means I had to have a net 00:24:01.520 --> 00:24:03.760 gateway. That means uh I get a whole 00:24:03.760 --> 00:24:05.200 bunch of extra costs, which is already 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:07.520 $50 a month for like a hobby or a single 00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:09.840 user. That doesn't make sense, right? 00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:10.240 So, 00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:11.760 >> yeah. Yeah. 00:24:11.760 --> 00:24:13.840 >> Yeah. So, so I did set up scheduled 00:24:13.840 --> 00:24:16.000 scaling um which basically with 00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:18.960 EventBridge uh stops it at night in the 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:20.400 evening and then scales it up again in 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:21.440 the morning. 00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:24.400 >> But um but still it says the net gateway 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.320 is really the the cause of your cost. 00:24:26.320 --> 00:24:28.000 >> Oh, this your own blog is it? 00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:29.760 >> Yeah, this was the blog post I posted. I 00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:32.559 have a I I want to post four parts. The 00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:34.720 first one was this initial cloud-based 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:36.559 exploration. I did the same with Hermes, 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:38.799 right? I just um you know spun up a 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:41.520 Hermes instance, looked at how it felt, 00:24:41.520 --> 00:24:42.880 looked at what I could do with it, 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:44.559 realized it's going to cost me $50 or 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:46.559 more dollars a month. Definitely if I I 00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:48.240 wanted to have a memory system, you 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:49.279 know, I wanted to have like the 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:51.760 hindsight and all that uh fire crawl for 00:24:51.760 --> 00:24:52.799 for web search. 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:54.799 >> Wait, why is it costing you $50? You 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:56.799 don't have a you don't have a Pi or 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:58.880 something? You don't have a VPS? What do 00:24:58.880 --> 00:24:59.760 you mean? 00:24:59.760 --> 00:25:02.080 >> Um yeah, this a different question. I'm 00:25:02.080 --> 00:25:04.000 talking about exploring and and getting 00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.720 started quickly. Um, I didn't have like 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.600 I I I didn't have like 00:25:09.600 --> 00:25:11.600 pie lying around or anything like that. 00:25:11.600 --> 00:25:12.080 >> I see. 00:25:12.080 --> 00:25:14.799 >> Um, so I wanted to quickly, you know, 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:18.240 try try this out. And and my quick start 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:20.640 to try anything out is, you know, spin 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.880 up an EC2 instance, do a bunch of 00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:23.520 things. 00:25:23.520 --> 00:25:24.960 >> If I don't like it, tear everything 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:27.120 down. Uh, if I keep if I want to keep it 00:25:27.120 --> 00:25:28.240 running, it's going to cost me at least 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:30.880 $50 a month. Um, but of course if I run 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:32.159 it for an hour or two, it's going to 00:25:32.159 --> 00:25:35.279 cost me maybe $2, $3 for an experiment. 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:37.360 I don't have to go and buy a a pie for 00:25:37.360 --> 00:25:39.840 that. 00:25:39.840 --> 00:25:43.760 >> Okay. So, um, 00:25:43.760 --> 00:25:46.080 >> N gateway and also funny um, because 00:25:46.080 --> 00:25:48.400 again the the the information for this 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.120 blog post came mostly from cloud, but I 00:25:51.120 --> 00:25:52.559 actually rewrote it and wrote it all 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:55.120 manually. I mean, large parts of it, 00:25:55.120 --> 00:25:56.960 most of it. [laughter] 00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:59.039 Why? Why did you have to rewrite it 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:00.159 manually? Just because it 00:26:00.159 --> 00:26:01.679 >> cuz I wanted to make sure it wasn't to 00:26:01.679 --> 00:26:04.480 AI slop and it was actually um you know 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:05.679 >> you tightened it up. 00:26:05.679 --> 00:26:07.760 >> Yeah, I tightened it up. Uh but the 00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:09.200 funny thing is that cloud is like Yeah, 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:10.559 but you're running it in in in 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:12.480 Singapore. In Singapore, the net gateway 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.360 is costing you $40. The savings that you 00:26:15.360 --> 00:26:17.840 have on a nightly um if you scale it 00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:20.960 down night nightly is only three like 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:23.039 $30. But if you would switch everything 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:25.600 to the US East, you would uh already cut 00:26:25.600 --> 00:26:28.480 the bill by $10 without even the up down 00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:30.640 schedule, which is a significant 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:32.400 difference, right? If you if you put it 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.679 in proportion that way. I thought that 00:26:33.679 --> 00:26:36.559 was pretty interesting finding. 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:36.960 >> Yeah. 00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.279 >> Yeah. I I'm I'm almost surprised how 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:41.120 expensive the net gateway is. And it's 00:26:41.120 --> 00:26:43.200 it's just been a meme for a decade now, 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:44.159 hasn't it? 00:26:44.159 --> 00:26:45.760 >> Yeah. So, there's two things I want to 00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:47.760 follow up on this article. It's to use 00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:50.799 fck-nat, right, which is the um 00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:52.640 >> Oh, yeah. You told me about that. You 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:53.760 told me about that. 00:26:53.760 --> 00:26:55.840 >> Yeah, I use it in in dev environments at 00:26:55.840 --> 00:26:59.919 work. It's really cheap. Um, it's a T4G 00:26:59.919 --> 00:27:02.480 nano because ultimately if you don't 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:05.360 need a high available multi- instance 00:27:05.360 --> 00:27:08.159 autoreovering high high throughput net 00:27:08.159 --> 00:27:10.799 gateway uh you can run on a single NAT 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:14.480 and set up um what's this called? Net is 00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:16.880 really just a couple of uh 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:18.640 >> IP tables is nothing. 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:20.159 >> Yeah, exactly. You can just do it with 00:27:20.159 --> 00:27:20.960 IP tables. 00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:22.640 >> If AWS announced, 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:23.600 >> that's great. 00:27:23.600 --> 00:27:26.640 >> That Net Gateway was being folded into 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:29.039 something and you wouldn't be in charge 00:27:29.039 --> 00:27:30.880 for it. It would be so great. 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:32.720 >> But anyway, 00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:35.760 >> yeah. So, great thing about Riverside is 00:27:35.760 --> 00:27:37.360 it connects. It records everything 00:27:37.360 --> 00:27:38.960 locally. It's just going to be weird in 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.600 the edit. Anyway, [laughter] 00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:43.760 back back to Kiro Crew. So, already like 00:27:43.760 --> 00:27:45.279 this is great. Like I told you about all 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:46.960 of the capabilities comes with out of 00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:48.559 the box, but how does it feel to 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.440 actually use it? So 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:53.600 I I tried some things out. For example, 00:27:53.600 --> 00:27:57.840 I was uh I was on a call. Let's uh close 00:27:57.840 --> 00:28:01.120 the sessions. Um and I wanted to ask a 00:28:01.120 --> 00:28:04.399 question about um agent core some 00:28:04.399 --> 00:28:08.159 capabilities there. So I was asking here 00:28:08.159 --> 00:28:10.720 it gave me some diagrams but then I 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:13.679 asked it to to create 00:28:13.679 --> 00:28:15.200 I hope that it would automatically 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:16.640 create like I wanted the sequence 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:18.159 diagram because it shows these things 00:28:18.159 --> 00:28:20.240 and I want it as a sequence diagram. I 00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.000 was hoping it would create an artifact 00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.159 but it split out a bunch of mermaid. I 00:28:24.159 --> 00:28:26.000 said now please just create a proper 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:28.320 artifact and um 00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:31.039 >> what's a proper artifact? HTML basically 00:28:31.039 --> 00:28:33.120 I suppose. Yeah, the same like if you 00:28:33.120 --> 00:28:34.640 talk in Claude Code and you say create an 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:36.080 artifact and then it opens up your 00:28:36.080 --> 00:28:38.559 browser with that HTML. Uh 00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:40.559 >> I don't really like mermaid diagrams but 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:41.919 oh well they could be just 00:28:41.919 --> 00:28:43.600 >> yeah well even Claude Code is doing most 00:28:43.600 --> 00:28:45.360 of it uh when it creates the artifact 00:28:45.360 --> 00:28:47.600 it's using u mermaid or other diagram 00:28:47.600 --> 00:28:51.120 tools under the hood um but anyway so 00:28:51.120 --> 00:28:52.960 while I was talking it created these 00:28:52.960 --> 00:28:57.840 diagrams um and then you can ideally 00:28:57.840 --> 00:29:00.559 easily share them uh with your team 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:02.640 right so this was pretty cool like I 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:04.320 found that a very nice experience uh 00:29:04.320 --> 00:29:07.600 it's all locally um on my Yeah, those 00:29:07.600 --> 00:29:08.880 look good. Those look good. 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.640 >> I click on artifacts. I can see all of 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:12.960 the previous artifacts it has created. 00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:14.159 Um, for example, here 00:29:14.159 --> 00:29:16.720 >> we can do better in this regard. 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:19.679 >> Well, yeah, but remember that here, 00:29:19.679 --> 00:29:21.120 okay, this is one thing I haven't told 00:29:21.120 --> 00:29:24.720 you yet. I'm I'm running this all off um 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:28.080 my local fork which uses my ChatGPT $20 00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:30.240 subscription. It doesn't like it's not 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:32.799 Claude Code. I'm not paying uh a lot of 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:35.520 money here. Uh basically my my family is 00:29:35.520 --> 00:29:37.600 using the the ChatGPT app on their phone 00:29:37.600 --> 00:29:39.919 and they're very happy with it. Uh and 00:29:39.919 --> 00:29:42.799 I'm using it to generate you know code 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.080 on my my machine. 00:29:44.080 --> 00:29:45.679 >> So that's what you did. You you 00:29:45.679 --> 00:29:48.480 basically forked Kro so that I can work 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.480 with you with your own personal 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.399 >> GPT subscription. So, if I go here in 00:29:54.399 --> 00:29:56.720 settings and I click on uh usage 00:29:56.720 --> 00:29:59.840 overview here, I can see here my uh it's 00:29:59.840 --> 00:30:03.039 my GPT plus and weekly reset is in six 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:06.000 days and I've only used 8% of my limit 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:07.919 >> um how many chats I have. So, all of 00:30:07.919 --> 00:30:10.480 these statistics are are my ChatGPT 00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:13.039 subscription and and I think this is the 00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:15.919 greatest thing about Kiro Crew. Um if 00:30:15.919 --> 00:30:18.799 you go back to that diagram here, where 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:20.080 is it? It's 00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:22.159 >> so the whole thing's open source is it? 00:30:22.159 --> 00:30:25.440 It's fully open source Apache 2 and it's 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:28.640 using this ACP protocol or agent client 00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:30.320 protocol which means 00:30:30.320 --> 00:30:34.240 >> they ship it with Kiro but you um can 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:36.480 contribute your own. So what I did I 00:30:36.480 --> 00:30:42.240 replaced the Kiro CLI with Codex and 00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.760 as a result my whole Kir crew is using 00:30:45.760 --> 00:30:49.200 CEX under the hood instead of KO. Ah, 00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:50.880 now I understand why you've been excited 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:52.799 to tell me about this. Yeah, that does 00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:54.320 sound quite cool. 00:30:54.320 --> 00:30:56.960 >> Yeah. So, I've I've I've showed it to 00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:58.559 the team because when they announced it, 00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:01.200 they said that um this is ACP, so you 00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.919 can use any uh compliant and and 00:31:03.919 --> 00:31:05.600 somebody asked I think like can we 00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:08.159 contribute our own other than Kira? And 00:31:08.159 --> 00:31:11.200 they said yeah. [laughter] And I was 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:14.000 like okay you you said we can. It wasn't 00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:16.480 me. Somebody else said, so I said uh to 00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:19.279 Fable, what would it take to rewrite 00:31:19.279 --> 00:31:21.520 this thing and not use Kiro uh but 00:31:21.520 --> 00:31:24.320 instead use use Codex and use this ACP? 00:31:24.320 --> 00:31:26.399 So I wanted to know and it's actually 00:31:26.399 --> 00:31:28.000 very interesting because this agent 00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:33.200 client protocol um is a way of like the 00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.279 client here is the gateway, right? 00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:38.559 Gateway is the client to the agent. So 00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:41.120 so the gateway advertises capabilities 00:31:41.120 --> 00:31:43.600 of what it can show to the user. Um, for 00:31:43.600 --> 00:31:46.159 example, elicitation. When I ask a 00:31:46.159 --> 00:31:49.840 question, um, it may ask like when the 00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:51.039 user asks a question through the 00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:53.360 gateway, the model might decide that 00:31:53.360 --> 00:31:55.360 it's better to get like, um, you know, 00:31:55.360 --> 00:31:56.960 feedback before it answers a question. 00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:58.320 So, it gives you a couple of options, 00:31:58.320 --> 00:32:00.159 right? Um, that's that's a ask user 00:32:00.159 --> 00:32:03.039 question tool in in in in um in cloud 00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:07.760 code. Um, so this elicitation is a 00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:10.240 defined capability in the agent client 00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.519 protocol. So there's a difference 00:32:13.519 --> 00:32:18.399 between the capabilities of Kira and 00:32:18.399 --> 00:32:22.399 Codex. So Codex implements elicitation. 00:32:22.399 --> 00:32:27.679 KO does not yet implement it. Okay. So 00:32:27.679 --> 00:32:30.240 what does that mean is that the gateway 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:32.799 uh currently advertises that it can 00:32:32.799 --> 00:32:35.679 display. It doesn't actually eliminate 00:32:35.679 --> 00:32:38.320 elicitation as a capability. So, Codex 00:32:38.320 --> 00:32:39.840 assumes that the gateway can can 00:32:39.840 --> 00:32:41.919 display. That means that Codex will come 00:32:41.919 --> 00:32:44.000 back to the gateway and say, "Show the 00:32:44.000 --> 00:32:46.480 user a cart with three options and the 00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:48.640 gateway um didn't say that it doesn't 00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:50.880 support it." So, um it actually right 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.120 now just responds with a 500 like 00:32:53.120 --> 00:32:55.840 internal server error. Um it actually 00:32:55.840 --> 00:32:58.320 responds with a reject code which keep 00:32:58.320 --> 00:33:01.519 which Codex inter interprets as it was 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:03.919 a security rejection and it cancels the 00:33:03.919 --> 00:33:06.000 request. So that was kind of like the 00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:09.519 unexpected um you know kind of problems 00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:12.399 you run into because of um that was one 00:33:12.399 --> 00:33:14.159 thing. Also the whole usage like 00:33:14.159 --> 00:33:16.880 dashboard that I just showed you it 00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:19.519 didn't work because the way that Kro ACP 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.559 um sends back usage information is 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:24.320 different from the way that Codex does. 00:33:24.320 --> 00:33:26.080 So I had to like fable highlight it 00:33:26.080 --> 00:33:27.919 exactly like where the problem lies like 00:33:27.919 --> 00:33:29.679 the the the Codex back end is sending 00:33:29.679 --> 00:33:32.240 the usage with every message and I said 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:35.200 like how about we we create like um um 00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.039 what do you call this a facade or like 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.679 an interface on top of it. So I'm I'm 00:33:39.679 --> 00:33:42.399 using Codex ACP under the hood but I'm 00:33:42.399 --> 00:33:44.000 exposing it as with the same 00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:46.080 capabilities as KO like Codex says I 00:33:46.080 --> 00:33:47.760 can't show you usage. So when you go to 00:33:47.760 --> 00:33:50.399 usage the dashboard is empty but I said 00:33:50.399 --> 00:33:52.720 hey CEX there is usage information just 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.279 present yourself as the hero usage and 00:33:55.279 --> 00:33:57.600 and under the hood it actually you know 00:33:57.600 --> 00:34:00.000 when codex sends them the message it it 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.519 captures the usage information and 00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:04.240 exposes it uh as a side channel so it 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.240 still works. Yeah. So that's the kind 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:07.679 the kind of cool stuff that I learned 00:34:07.679 --> 00:34:09.359 doing this, right? Because yeah, 00:34:09.359 --> 00:34:10.639 obviously I don't want to maintain a 00:34:10.639 --> 00:34:12.720 fork like I was actually thinking I set 00:34:12.720 --> 00:34:14.960 up this KU instance to to automatically 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:16.720 maintain its own fork and every time 00:34:16.720 --> 00:34:19.359 rebases on top of the upstream uh and 00:34:19.359 --> 00:34:21.679 and and and things like that. But uh 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:24.320 thankfully the the AWS team is actually 00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:26.879 living up to their promise and um and 00:34:26.879 --> 00:34:28.960 they're like you know evaluating because 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:30.879 they're also saying why don't we just if 00:34:30.879 --> 00:34:32.560 you do the Codex authentication you get 00:34:32.560 --> 00:34:34.960 a bearer token. What if we just like use 00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:37.839 Akira ACP um but you use a Codex like 00:34:37.839 --> 00:34:40.000 bearer token that you get through the O 00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:42.639 flow um and that might be another thing 00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:43.919 that you could do instead of just 00:34:43.919 --> 00:34:46.079 replacing the whole ECP back end. I just 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:47.919 did it for my like my own exploration 00:34:47.919 --> 00:34:49.839 like what is HCP? What is the impact? 00:34:49.839 --> 00:34:52.240 How does that you know manifest itself? 00:34:52.240 --> 00:34:54.159 It was very cool. 00:34:54.159 --> 00:34:55.599 >> Yeah, this this sounds really 00:34:55.599 --> 00:34:57.119 interesting. Yeah, thanks for 00:34:57.119 --> 00:34:58.640 introducing me to agent decline 00:34:58.640 --> 00:35:00.720 protocol. But wait but wait a minute. 00:35:00.720 --> 00:35:03.760 Um, sorry Vince, I was just daydreaming 00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:06.800 there in about using it myself. So you 00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.720 said you didn't want to maintain a fork. 00:35:08.720 --> 00:35:11.119 So So going forward here, if I wanted to 00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:15.599 get started using my own um Codex or 00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:18.240 clawed subscription, what what changes 00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:21.920 would I need to make on on the on on Kro 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:24.400 to unlock that? 00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:27.520 Can I just patch it using your thing or 00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:29.920 do I just launch Fable and ask it to 00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:31.359 make a fork? 00:35:31.359 --> 00:35:33.599 >> So, I have a public fork um that I've 00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:36.320 shared with the team and um shown them 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:39.680 what works. I identified the gaps um you 00:35:39.680 --> 00:35:42.240 know where where the Codex ACP protocol 00:35:42.240 --> 00:35:44.320 and the Kiro ACP protocol did not match 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.400 up and the ways that I worked around it 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:49.599 so that I make things work and um my 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:51.520 fork currently is public so anyone can 00:35:51.520 --> 00:35:54.720 just build a copy of Kiro Crew and run 00:35:54.720 --> 00:35:58.400 it with with Codex uh if they want um I 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:00.480 would not recommend building a co cloud 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:03.200 code ACP in fact there is there is a 00:36:03.200 --> 00:36:05.040 bunch of code stripped out so internally 00:36:05.040 --> 00:36:07.359 within AWS they they run kir crew with 00:36:07.359 --> 00:36:10.079 Claude Code ACP I believe. Um but they've 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:11.280 stripped it out because if you do that 00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:13.119 on a subscription you will get your 00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:16.640 account banned. Um so but but OpenAI it 00:36:16.640 --> 00:36:18.079 tells you you can do it. So if you want 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:20.800 to run Kira crew with Codex ACP today 00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:23.440 you can use my fork build your own 00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:26.480 instance and use it. Hopefully in the 00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:28.880 next few weeks if if they if they do 00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:30.800 believe this is a good addition it might 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:33.280 get merged upstream right and then you 00:36:33.280 --> 00:36:34.640 just have a single Kiro crew and then 00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:37.200 you can choose either Codex or Kiro 00:36:37.200 --> 00:36:38.640 >> there's definitely a gap for the market 00:36:38.640 --> 00:36:41.359 I mean I was always kind of assuming 00:36:41.359 --> 00:36:43.599 that open code or some somebody else was 00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:46.800 kind of filling it up but like if if AWS 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:50.560 is is pushing is is publishing good 00:36:50.560 --> 00:36:53.920 stuff with the Apache 2 license 00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:55.839 I can't help but I think that it's it's 00:36:55.839 --> 00:36:59.599 on it's it's a very good game plan. 00:36:59.599 --> 00:37:00.160 Very good. 00:37:00.160 --> 00:37:01.760 >> I want to show you this elicitation 00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:05.200 thing um because this the fix was very 00:37:05.200 --> 00:37:06.800 interesting actually and you can see it 00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:08.960 at work here 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:10.880 >> rather. 00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:13.440 >> Yeah. So instead of showing a card here 00:37:13.440 --> 00:37:15.599 that that this is the realitation. So 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:18.160 normally Codex would reply with like a 00:37:18.160 --> 00:37:20.160 um a schema of what should be in the 00:37:20.160 --> 00:37:22.640 form. It should show you the options and 00:37:22.640 --> 00:37:24.560 then the user can click on one of those 00:37:24.560 --> 00:37:26.240 options and then the option gets fed 00:37:26.240 --> 00:37:27.920 back into the gateway gets goes back to 00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.720 Codex. But it's not supported. So 00:37:30.720 --> 00:37:32.320 what's what's happening right now? I 00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:34.079 smell something weird like [snorts] 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:36.720 smoke. I hope I'm not on fire. 00:37:36.720 --> 00:37:39.599 >> Um anyway, I'll go check in a minute. 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:40.720 It's [laughter] like this it's like this 00:37:40.720 --> 00:37:42.480 meme where the guy's on fire and he's 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:44.880 like sending message fire. 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:47.440 >> It's it's always a good idea to nip the 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:49.119 fire in the bud. Just go and have a 00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:51.119 look. Christ. Maybe it's the car that 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.040 was on that the car alarm and maybe it 00:37:53.040 --> 00:37:54.560 was on fire. Maybe that's why the car 00:37:54.560 --> 00:37:57.440 alarm was going off. [laughter] 00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:59.920 >> It's fine. Yeah. Anyway, so it's fine. 00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:02.240 >> What what what's happened the fix that 00:38:02.240 --> 00:38:04.560 that Fable suggested was just for the 00:38:04.560 --> 00:38:06.079 gateway, you know, remember the gateway 00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:08.480 is the client here to just not clearly 00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:10.160 advertise that it does not support 00:38:10.160 --> 00:38:12.960 elicitation. And when Codex knows that 00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:14.720 it does not support elicitation, but it 00:38:14.720 --> 00:38:16.960 wants to get feedback, it actually sends 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:19.920 back a structured response um with just 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:21.839 a list of options. And that's what 00:38:21.839 --> 00:38:23.839 happened here. So I was like, I want to 00:38:23.839 --> 00:38:26.160 build ask us a question like I want to 00:38:26.160 --> 00:38:29.200 have that nice interactivity of options 00:38:29.200 --> 00:38:31.839 >> and uh and then what I realized is 00:38:31.839 --> 00:38:34.320 >> I didn't have to build it because the 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:36.720 gateway is able to show these options 00:38:36.720 --> 00:38:38.960 right here as little chips above my 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:40.400 chat. Can you click it and and add 00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:41.920 notes? Oh, I see. 00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:43.119 >> So when you when you click it, you can 00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:45.119 even click both of them and then it go 00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.560 they go inside here and then you can 00:38:46.560 --> 00:38:47.119 just modify. 00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:48.560 >> Interesting implementation. 00:38:48.560 --> 00:38:49.920 >> It's a very Yeah. And I thought like 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:51.920 this is better than than than ask user 00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:53.760 question, right? I was trying to build 00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:55.599 something I knew. Um but there was a 00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:57.839 better pattern that already worked. So 00:38:57.839 --> 00:38:59.280 that's kind of also something I learned, 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.839 right? Sometimes you got to really use 00:39:01.839 --> 00:39:03.760 the system and understand how it works 00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:05.680 before you try to make it work exactly 00:39:05.680 --> 00:39:07.440 the way that you know. 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.240 >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean it is strange to 00:39:10.240 --> 00:39:11.920 think I mean we've talked about ask 00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:14.000 question tool 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:16.160 a number of times 00:39:16.160 --> 00:39:19.040 but it's one of those things that we we 00:39:19.040 --> 00:39:21.520 will keep on revisiting I suppose 00:39:21.520 --> 00:39:25.359 because the way you use it has so many 00:39:25.359 --> 00:39:28.560 nuances and uh I don't think we've even 00:39:28.560 --> 00:39:31.119 touched on the multiplayer 00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:34.160 u aspect really because ultimately the 00:39:34.160 --> 00:39:36.320 the ask user tool probably is like one 00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:38.720 of the major the 00:39:38.720 --> 00:39:41.359 decision points in your decision tree 00:39:41.359 --> 00:39:44.079 about how you get to your end product or 00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.000 somehow 00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.079 it is quite fascinating to see where 00:39:48.079 --> 00:39:51.760 those those turns were made. Yeah. So 00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.240 here is the interaction and maybe you 00:39:54.240 --> 00:39:55.680 can say well this is like what the chat 00:39:55.680 --> 00:39:58.079 GPT app gives me right but again it runs 00:39:58.079 --> 00:39:59.839 on your box your memory system all your 00:39:59.839 --> 00:40:02.000 data. The second thing is you have the 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.640 context window, you know, tracer here. 00:40:04.640 --> 00:40:06.240 You can choose the models and because I 00:40:06.240 --> 00:40:08.160 build codecs, I have all of the CHP 00:40:08.160 --> 00:40:08.640 models. 00:40:08.640 --> 00:40:10.000 >> Can you show the tracer? I'm just 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:12.240 curious because I' often find the 00:40:12.240 --> 00:40:14.960 tracing implementation is 00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:15.599 >> what tracing 00:40:15.599 --> 00:40:18.240 >> sometimes not what I expected to be. 00:40:18.240 --> 00:40:19.920 >> What is the tracing? 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.480 >> Oh, like when you see the the actual 00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:25.119 calls and uh the thinking and things 00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:26.800 like that. 00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:28.400 Oh, maybe it's not there. Ah, you mean 00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.000 the thinking the thinking steps that it 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:31.520 did? Okay. Sorry, I thought you wanted 00:40:31.520 --> 00:40:34.160 to see like telemetry. So, is there some 00:40:34.160 --> 00:40:35.920 thinking? Okay, there's no there's been 00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:37.680 no thinking on this chat, but let's go. 00:40:37.680 --> 00:40:39.200 What should the agent elicit from the 00:40:39.200 --> 00:40:44.160 user uh buying a car options? And let's 00:40:44.160 --> 00:40:45.440 stop with the questions and have it 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.520 build an artifact. 00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:49.200 Should the walk through expose the 00:40:49.200 --> 00:40:52.720 protocol? Enough questions. 00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:56.933 Build the artifact. Oh my god. 00:40:56.933 --> 00:40:59.040 >> [laughter] 00:40:59.040 --> 00:41:02.000 >> So yeah, so here's a thinking right. So 00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.599 you can see the thinking box at the top 00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:04.319 here. 00:41:04.319 --> 00:41:05.280 >> Pretty cool. 00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:07.119 >> Yeah. And then this is the this is one 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:09.119 of the main features uh from Kiro Crew 00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:11.359 as well uh which is like security. 00:41:11.359 --> 00:41:12.880 There's this embedding model and 00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:14.960 autoclassifier. Sorry not embedding it's 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:17.520 an local autoclassifier. So right now 00:41:17.520 --> 00:41:21.280 it's it's um it says you can say trust 00:41:21.280 --> 00:41:23.680 this particular action or trust all. I'm 00:41:23.680 --> 00:41:25.280 just going to go by the most secure way, 00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:28.373 which is trust everything. [laughter] 00:41:28.373 --> 00:41:29.680 [snorts] 00:41:29.680 --> 00:41:31.359 >> This is interesting. It's really 00:41:31.359 --> 00:41:32.400 interesting. 00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:35.200 >> Yeah, but like if you only managed like 00:41:35.200 --> 00:41:37.760 if you only used um Hermes through 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.079 Discord like I have, this is a breath of 00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:41.680 fresh air. And I haven't even touched 00:41:41.680 --> 00:41:42.880 and like because of all of the 00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:44.240 capabilities that it comes with, right, 00:41:44.240 --> 00:41:46.160 with the taskr runner, the the knowledge 00:41:46.160 --> 00:41:48.079 base, the schedule, and then you have 00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:50.960 the whole apps ecosystem. So they have a 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:53.200 whole SDK and I haven't tried any of 00:41:53.200 --> 00:41:57.599 these but you can have um like there's 00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:00.480 extensions where you have more than one 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:03.440 agent and so you can have a whole um 00:42:03.440 --> 00:42:05.359 animation and a world where you see like 00:42:05.359 --> 00:42:07.440 oh suddenly your review agent woke up 00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:09.359 because a new issue has been raised or a 00:42:09.359 --> 00:42:10.960 new pull request has been raised and you 00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:13.040 see that agent moving towards a desk to 00:42:13.040 --> 00:42:14.720 start reviewing the things like those 00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:16.240 are the things that people show and I 00:42:16.240 --> 00:42:18.160 think this is a bit stupid but it looks 00:42:18.160 --> 00:42:20.160 cute right and it's great great visual 00:42:20.160 --> 00:42:22.240 And it's good advertisement, right? But 00:42:22.240 --> 00:42:24.480 I haven't enabled any of that. Like not 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:25.520 yet. 00:42:25.520 --> 00:42:26.560 >> Not at this point. 00:42:26.560 --> 00:42:30.319 >> Yeah, I've got Oh, this man. Yeah, this 00:42:30.319 --> 00:42:31.920 is this is a great little development. 00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:35.040 So, the title of this podcast should 00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:38.240 definitely just be agent context agent 00:42:38.240 --> 00:42:40.400 client protocol. Sorry. 00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:43.200 >> Yeah, agent client protocol. It's a 00:42:43.200 --> 00:42:45.520 thing and it's really interesting. Well, 00:42:45.520 --> 00:42:47.440 it's a thing that powers Kiro and it's 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:49.760 a major rewrite that AWS did on how they 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:51.680 built Kiro because originally they had 00:42:51.680 --> 00:42:54.000 three surfaces. One was the Kiro IDE 00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:55.839 which is like a VS code IDE plus 00:42:55.839 --> 00:42:58.000 specdriven development. Then they had 00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:01.200 the Kiro CLI which is a renamed QLI and 00:43:01.200 --> 00:43:03.520 then they had the cloud Kiro um 00:43:03.520 --> 00:43:06.160 offering like a a cloud service and each 00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:08.000 one of them had to had a separate 00:43:08.000 --> 00:43:10.079 codebase and had to be redeveloped. So 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:11.520 what they did is they rerollled all of 00:43:11.520 --> 00:43:14.160 it into a single harness um that 00:43:14.160 --> 00:43:16.400 supports the agent client protocol and 00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:17.920 then they built different interfaces on 00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:20.240 top of it. So they built this um Kirk 00:43:20.240 --> 00:43:21.599 crew gateway on top of it. They built 00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:24.240 the Kiro CLI as one of the you know 00:43:24.240 --> 00:43:26.240 interfaces on top of the harness and 00:43:26.240 --> 00:43:28.400 they're also rewriting the um you know 00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:31.520 other capabilities there. So I do hope 00:43:31.520 --> 00:43:33.480 that's all public information. 00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:35.200 [laughter] I do think because they 00:43:35.200 --> 00:43:36.880 announced this uh they made this public 00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:38.800 and they're advertising. Uh, no. I've 00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:40.880 definitely seen the LinkedIn posts. 00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:43.040 >> Okay, 00:43:43.040 --> 00:43:44.000 >> let's end [clears throat] the podcast 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:45.680 there because I I need to get on with 00:43:45.680 --> 00:43:46.400 some other 00:43:46.400 --> 00:43:48.800 >> Wait, you need to see the artifact. 00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:51.760 It has created the artifact for you. 00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:53.920 >> And then and then of course I got to put 00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:57.119 my security hat on and work out 00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.599 >> the wor so hard to create an ACP 00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:02.079 explanation for you using 00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:03.839 >> what the multiplayer what the 00:44:03.839 --> 00:44:07.280 multiplayer story is. So I really love 00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.040 this interactivity here. Like when you 00:44:09.040 --> 00:44:11.599 select it, you can just go quote. Um 00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:13.280 then the artifact has been built. You 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:15.440 click on it, it opens on the side. You 00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:17.119 can make it full screen. You can leave 00:44:17.119 --> 00:44:17.920 some comments. 00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:21.280 >> It reminds me of claw claude code. 00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:22.960 >> I mean not claw code. 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:24.400 >> Cloud desktop. Yeah. 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:26.319 >> Yeah. Maybe maybe some 00:44:26.319 --> 00:44:28.720 >> Do you not use claw desktop? 00:44:28.720 --> 00:44:32.480 >> Not so much. No. No. I sometimes like I 00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:34.720 ask it to like fill out a PDF for me 00:44:34.720 --> 00:44:36.880 like 00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:38.319 >> Well, there's still there's still 00:44:38.319 --> 00:44:40.240 there's definitely value in an 00:44:40.240 --> 00:44:42.400 open-source Claude Code in my opinion. 00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:42.880 Definitely. 00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:44.400 >> This is pretty cool. Look at this. It 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:48.480 created this like users start to turn 00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:50.960 artifact. Oh, I haven't seen actually. 00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:53.760 No, you can do that with claw desktop. 00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:55.760 >> It's really cool. I can see why you're 00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:58.079 excited about it. 00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:01.920 And then ideally I can publish this uh 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:03.920 if I because right now this runs on a on 00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:06.880 a VM on my my um desktop at home and it 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:08.960 doesn't have AWS credentials but if it 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:10.960 runs on an EC2 box and that box has the 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:12.720 right permissions it will publish this 00:45:12.720 --> 00:45:14.319 and makes this available through 00:45:14.319 --> 00:45:16.400 whatever like do you have a blog and do 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:18.240 you you know host it on S3 with 00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:20.000 CloudFront then you can just directly 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:22.400 publish your you know visualizations and 00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:23.599 share with other people right there. 00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:28.000 There's definitely a some some 00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:30.160 value a lot of value in having it open 00:45:30.160 --> 00:45:31.359 and 00:45:31.359 --> 00:45:32.720 >> this is quite exciting. Well, thanks 00:45:32.720 --> 00:45:36.560 thanks for letting showing me and 00:45:36.560 --> 00:45:38.480 I'm going to get back to my holiday now. 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:41.040 I are you are you not taking any holiday 00:45:41.040 --> 00:45:42.640 in August or September? 00:45:42.640 --> 00:45:44.640 >> At the end of August and this is only 00:45:44.640 --> 00:45:46.240 one part of it, right? I I only showed 00:45:46.240 --> 00:45:48.640 you the artifacts. I haven't even 00:45:48.640 --> 00:45:50.079 started with all the extensions 00:45:50.079 --> 00:45:51.920 capabilities or the schedule or the 00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:53.680 taskr runner. I haven't even given it 00:45:53.680 --> 00:45:55.520 the GitHub identity yet. Like this is 00:45:55.520 --> 00:45:57.280 supposed to replace my Harness box, 00:45:57.280 --> 00:45:58.880 right? And there's so much more that I 00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:01.520 have to do. Uh but I've had so much fun 00:46:01.520 --> 00:46:03.760 already with it. Um but anyway, 00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:06.160 >> yeah. Um read I'm going to post more 00:46:06.160 --> 00:46:09.280 blogs and and share them with you. It's 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:11.520 going to break down. 00:46:11.520 --> 00:46:13.040 >> Yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty happy with 00:46:13.040 --> 00:46:18.880 Hermes Hermes agent. So, but um but I 00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:21.920 definitely will play around with this. 00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:26.400 Definitely. Cool. All right. Um, 00:46:26.400 --> 00:46:28.640 thanks for listening this far. If you 00:46:28.640 --> 00:46:32.000 got this far, like the video, 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:34.400 >> do all that stuff. Otherwise, I wish you 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:36.560 a good summer holiday and take a break 00:46:36.560 --> 00:46:39.839 like I'm trying to do now. Take a break. 00:46:39.839 --> 00:46:41.760 >> So, I guess I won't see you. Will I see 00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:42.160 you next week? 00:46:42.160 --> 00:46:44.800 >> Stand still. Never look back. 00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:47.760 Don't look back in anger. Anyway, okay. 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:50.000 Take a break. See you, man. Bye. 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:52.640 >> Bye.